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  #1  
Old 24th November 2007, 11:55 AM
Sachin Asher
 
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Default Bull Markets, Bear Markets and Investing



I will give you a stock...

a company that is going to grow its revenues at 30% annually and profits at 39% annually for the next 7 years.

would you buy this stock?

many of you would say a big "yes".

many had said "yes" in the last bull run too.

==================================================

today, they regret their decision.

this is not the story of any Pentamedia Graphics or HFCL. These are hard facts about India's IT major Wipro.

7 years back, in the bull run of 1999-2000 people had become extremely bullish about the IT stocks. They foresaw a strong and bright future for the IT stocks. Yes it did happen. The bigger IT companies have grown from strength to strength in the last 7 years.

Wipro's revenues in FY 2000: Rs 2300 crore.
Wipro's revenues in FY 2007: Rs 15000 crore. (30% compounded annual growth).

Wipro's profits in FY 2000: Rs 300 crore.
Wipro's profits in FY 2007: Rs 2942 crore. (39% compounded annual growth).

Still many investors of that time have lost money in Wipro.

Lets look at the average stock price of Wipro for some quarters in FY 2000 and FY 2001.

All prices are already adjusted for bonuses and stock splits. In the last few years, dividend yield of IT companies has been very small compared to their prices and can be neglected.

Q1 FY 2000 (April-June 1999): Rs 133.
Q2 FY 2000 (July-September 1999): Rs. 182.
Q3 FY 2000 (October-December 1999): Rs. 276
Q4 FY 2000 (January-March 2000): Rs. 900.
Q1 FY 2001 (April-June 2000): Rs 487.
Q2 FY 2001 (July-September 2000): Rs 472.
Q3 FY 2001 (October-December 2000): 428.
Q4 FY 2001 (January-March 2001): 344.

Let us assume an investor bought Wipro shares in each quarter at the average price prevalent in the respective quarter.

What returns he would have got in these seven years?

(Current Price of Wipro: Rs 441)

Q1 FY 2000 bought at Rs 133. (returns in 7 years: 18.7% annualized)
Q2 FY 2000 bought at Rs 182. (returns in 7 years: 13.5% annualized)
Q3 FY 2000 bought at Rs 276. (returns in 7 years: 6.9% annualized)
Q4 FY 2000 bought at Rs 900. (returns in 7 years: -9.7% annualized)
Q1 FY 2001 bought at Rs 487. (returns in 7 years: -1.4% annualized)
Q2 FY 2001 bought at Rs 472. (returns in 7 years: -1.0% annualized)
Q3 FY 2001 bought at Rs 428. (returns in 7 years: 0.004% annualized)
Q4 FY 2001 bought at Rs 344. (returns in 7 years: 3.6% annualized)

For anyone who bought between FY 2000 Q3 and FY 2001 Q4, the stock either gave negative returns or returns less than that given by a simple fixed deposit.

This is the case of a leading IT company.

Here is the weekly price chart of Wipro. The light blue ribbon is the average price of 13 weeks (1 Quarter).



If, I had done the same analysis for smaller IT companies like Polaris, the returns from most quarters would have been negative.

If, I had done the same analysis for hot stocks of that time like Pentamedia, the investors would have been left with an amount equal to the brokerage that they paid for buying these stocks.

So what went wrong?

The problem was discounting the future too much.

The fact that a company is going to show strong growth in next few years, does not mean its stock will grow at the same pace too.

As the saying is "a good company is not a good stock, unless you get it at a good price".

The Maruti 800 is a great car, but will you pay Rs 10 lac for it?

No.

The same logic works for stocks. There is a price at which a good company is a good investment.

If a stock price is already factoring growth of next five years, there is no way it is going to good returns in next few years.

==================================================

Another thing that I would like to point out from the above analysis is the diversion of price and value.

If you look at the above returns table, you would say the stock had little value above Rs 250 in 1999-2000.

Did that mean the stock did not go above Rs 250?

No.

The stock actually went to Rs 1500+ levels.

Why?

because this is how bull markets work.

many people tell me - "you said stock ABC was overvalued and still it went up 20%-30%."

this is because bull markets don't stop at fair valuations. they can go much beyond fair valuations.

in a bull markets, stocks usually don't go below fair valuations.

on the upside, they can go anywhere. thus, for a fresh buy in bullish stocks, buying at little below fair valuations would be a good idea.

but for selling, it is difficult to give a target.

==================================================

it works in the opposite manner in a bear market.

in bear markets, stocks don't rise much above fair valuations.

on the downside, they can go anywhere. thus, for a sell in a bear market, selling at little over fair valuations would be a good idea.

but for buying, it is difficult to predict a level - bear markets can take stocks to highly undervalued levels.

==================================================

The current bull market is not as ferocious as the 1999-2000 one, but there are certainly many stocks in which the markets have already factored 3-5 years of growth - especially in the so called "high growth" sectors.

Investors would do themselves a lot of good, if they start looking, not just at company's future growth, but also at valuations.
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  #2  
Old 24th November 2007, 12:29 PM
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I must say .. This is one of the best write ups I've read on investing ..! Thanks and keep them coming ..!
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  #3  
Old 26th November 2007, 12:41 AM
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Truly Awesome! The way you explain it, any layman should get it.

Ever considered writing an investment book or developing a coursework?
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  #4  
Old 26th November 2007, 07:11 AM
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I second you both. But I would like Mr Alchemist to go one step forward and explain his philosophy of Picking a good stock, ways of evaluating it, etc. If not, a book or any course that will help us rookies to understand and evaluate the stocks fundamentally.
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  #5  
Old 26th November 2007, 03:06 PM
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Fantastic analysis !! Very concise and easy to understand.
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  #6  
Old 30th November 2007, 06:12 PM
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Really good work.

Now if I think of most stocks that have risen in this current bull-run, then the same theory can be applied on them also. Just have a look at Mundra Port and SEZ Limited. The share price does not reflect its true position, but the market has reacted taking in consideration the future growth of the company and the current bull-run has helped the matter.

The point rose by Alchemist is really nice, Kudos to Him, good work. Please keep it up Dear AlchemistJi.
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  #7  
Old 3rd December 2007, 01:23 PM
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Default How do we know the valuations?

This one is a great analysis. could you also point to some of the ways using which one can know the fair valuations? How do I come to a particular valuation for a company? and how do I know that this is the fair valuation? Is there anything on the internet that I can use (some online resources, some site or something)? Where would I get the relevant information about the companies?
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  #8  
Old 8th December 2007, 08:01 PM
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...wonderful.........................
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  #9  
Old 5th February 2008, 05:47 PM
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An Excellent Analysis I have seen.
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  #10  
Old 5th February 2008, 10:37 PM
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Hi Alchem
could you please explain the valuations for a stock..
1. How the valuations are calculated...
2. When do call a stock to be over-valued??
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  #11  
Old 28th February 2008, 03:50 PM
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Default Hay Man Good Work But One Mistake

Dear... The Year Which U Shows High Of 900 Rs... And The Total Situation... Was Because Of K-10.... Mt Ketan Parekh Not Forgot That... Really...

I Dont Know Why But My Each Views Is Going Against U And Really This Will Benefit To All The Reader.. Right Na ?????

One More Thing I Will Like To Tell U,... Before Ten Days I Told Good Valuation Is For Hindustan Zinc... Regarding That Gmr Working...

See The Price Ride Of Hindustan Zinc In Last One Week...

Still I Am Telling.. Do To The Old Economy Companies.. Its Metal, Hotel, Fmcg, Consumer Durables... It Will Pay U...
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  #12  
Old 28th February 2008, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pateln07 View Post
Dear... The Year Which U Shows High Of 900 Rs... And The Total Situation... Was Because Of K-10.... Mt Ketan Parekh Not Forgot That... Really...

I Dont Know Why But My Each Views Is Going Against U And Really This Will Benefit To All The Reader.. Right Na ?????

One More Thing I Will Like To Tell U,... Before Ten Days I Told Good Valuation Is For Hindustan Zinc... Regarding That Gmr Working...

See The Price Ride Of Hindustan Zinc In Last One Week...

Still I Am Telling.. Do To The Old Economy Companies.. Its Metal, Hotel, Fmcg, Consumer Durables... It Will Pay U...
I used Wipro just as a sample.

However all over the world, IT stocks had behaved in the same manner.

Did KP trade the NASDAQ too?

The NASDAQ composite's value has halved in last 7 years.

It was the same story.....over-discounting the future.

(Wipro's chart is so similar to that of NASDAQ composite).

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  #13  
Old 29th February 2008, 09:10 AM
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Default Buddy U can do same this with sugar also

Buddy i can show worst situation in sugar then what u showed me in IT..

renuka sugar 350 from 1700
Oudh sugar 67 from 280...

the thing is when some sector goes wrong it because of some out of box idea... like silicon valley bubble in 2000... that was the situation... if some war will there then stock market even come to 6000 point...

that are few things which are extra ordinary in terms of market..

go rationally in market not individually... wipro is still better as its not only in IT its also in else items and other things...
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  #14  
Old 29th February 2008, 09:26 AM
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Default Great analysis

.........Superb Analysis Alchemistji...........
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  #15  
Old 29th February 2008, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pateln07 View Post

the thing is when some sector goes wrong it because of some out of box idea... like silicon valley bubble in 2000...
The tragedy of a bubble is most people don't realize that it is a bubble, till it bursts.

Bubbles don't seem like bubbles when they are growing.

If the markets had thought Sensex would come down to 15000 in January, the rally from September to December would have never happened.

People kept buying stocks because they thought the markets had more upside.

Bubbles happen when investors over-estimate the future.

The truth only emerges when future comes closer.

We may have some earnings estimates for the future, but as I said earlier, there is no guarantee that these will be 100% accurate.

See this thread on midcap underperformers.

In 2006, people were very bullish on pharma stocks, but the actual earnings were much lower than earlier expectations. Many of these stocks still haven't crossed their 2006 highs.

This can happen with any sector or even the whole markets.

Being an eternal bull or bear is a suicidal.

One's future outlook has to be flexible. As new information emerges, one has to be prepared to change his/her views.

Quote:
They say there are two sides to everything. But there is only one side to the stock market; and it is not the bull side or the bear side, but the right side. It took me longer to get that general principle fixed firmly in my mind than it did most of the more technical phases of the game of stock speculation.......Jesse Livermore (1877-1940).
==========================================

As far as Indian markets are concerned, I still remain a long term bull.

==========================================

If you ask me:

"Will Sensex go to 12000"?

I will answer:

"No"

==========================================

If you ask me:

"Can Sensex go to 12000"?

I will answer:

"Why not? This is a stock market."

If the US goes into a severe recession and global liquidity(risk appetite) shrinks much more than currently expected, Sensex may even go to 10000.

I don't expect it, but I will remain prepared for a major corrective move.
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  #16  
Old 29th February 2008, 03:09 PM
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Default Pharma !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hay hold on dear...

i had taken cipla at 190, 175 and 160 and today i am happy that in this condition cipla is at 210.. and gave me good profit...

u know i ve 43 stocks and all i had taken after january 2007 and still out of that i am in profit in 38 stock... u know why ?? i always taking a stock which are good valued but not run with market...

i dont have infrastructure or banks share.. really not.. i just hold this sector..

telecom TTML, R COM both are still 20% above then my buying avt
hotel = Hotel leela, indian hotel both are in profit
Metal = hindustan zinc. ispat.. hindalco
IT = infy, TCS, Hexaware
Pharma , CIPLA

and so on...

when people was not buying cipla i go through its valuation u know what was it ???/

sales 2003 = 1460 cr in 2007 3572 cr
Net profit 2003 = 247 cr in 2007 660 cr
R & S = 2003 999 cr and in 2007 3070 cr...

see understand one thing... no technical analysis work... no fundamental analysis work... work is ... think the way which FII and Big Investor thinking...

they are taking share silently... at lower price... good valuation.. and hold it.. and then make them run... they done this with following share recently

Hindalco
INFY
Cipla
JP Hydro
RPL

so really telling if u want to invest then think yr self.. no techincal.. no fundamental... u just think... what u are using... where u are spending money.. which company is more trust worthy.. and invest...

so dont worry about bubble.. bubble is for infrastucture... power and other share like RNRL, ISPAT, ESSAR OIL... which share run like madness...

for value buyer wait and watch u will really get good return in next 2 yrs..
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  #17  
Old 26th March 2008, 05:04 PM
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Wonderful and very informative analysis Alchemist .Thanks for the same .I learned a lot from this analysis of yours .
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  #18  
Old 3rd April 2008, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pateln07 View Post
Hay hold on dear...

i had taken cipla at 190, 175 and 160 and today i am happy that in this condition cipla is at 210.. and gave me good profit...

u know i ve 43 stocks and all i had taken after january 2007 and still out of that i am in profit in 38 stock... u know why ?? i always taking a stock which are good valued but not run with market...

i dont have infrastructure or banks share.. really not.. i just hold this sector..

telecom TTML, R COM both are still 20% above then my buying avt
hotel = Hotel leela, indian hotel both are in profit
Metal = hindustan zinc. ispat.. hindalco
IT = infy, TCS, Hexaware
Pharma , CIPLA

and so on...

when people was not buying cipla i go through its valuation u know what was it ???/

sales 2003 = 1460 cr in 2007 3572 cr
Net profit 2003 = 247 cr in 2007 660 cr
R & S = 2003 999 cr and in 2007 3070 cr...

see understand one thing... no technical analysis work... no fundamental analysis work... work is ... think the way which FII and Big Investor thinking...

they are taking share silently... at lower price... good valuation.. and hold it.. and then make them run... they done this with following share recently

Hindalco
INFY
Cipla
JP Hydro
RPL

so really telling if u want to invest then think yr self.. no techincal.. no fundamental... u just think... what u are using... where u are spending money.. which company is more trust worthy.. and invest...

so dont worry about bubble.. bubble is for infrastucture... power and other share like RNRL, ISPAT, ESSAR OIL... which share run like madness...

for value buyer wait and watch u will really get good return in next 2 yrs..
Hi dear
I am agree with you ,in that point ,that no fundamental analysis is working. but you further said that only by good valuation, How can we decide the good valuation? of course it is by fundamental analysis or other way. If I am wrong please correct me. thnks.
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  #19  
Old 22nd November 2009, 02:25 PM
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Various news over the last few days give cause for tension.

Dell fared poorly. Cognizant saw insider-selling. Brazil and S. Korea acted on fund inflows. India may be next.

But the Swami has his glass half-full .
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  #20  
Old 29th January 2010, 10:30 AM
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14 duds?

Quote:
From a low of 8,160 on 9 March 2009, the Sensex has surged over 100%, taking with it most companies on a dizzying price rise. However, several companies have missed the boat completely, actually moving in the opposite direction.
Austral Coke & Projects
Ackruti City
Vishal Information Technologies
Anu’s Laboratories
Bang Overseas
Cranes Software
K Sera Sera Productions
Northgate Technologies
Tata Communications
Orissa Sponge Iron & Steel
Rasoi
Disa India
GSL Nova Petrochemicals
Lotus Eye Care Hospital (virtually unchanged)
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  #21  
Old 30th January 2010, 12:28 AM
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If I am not mistaken, Tata Comm made a new intraday LOW today for this Bear Market (Yes, I still consider this to be a Bear Market Rally)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasa1 View Post
14 duds?



Austral Coke & Projects
Ackruti City
Vishal Information Technologies
Anu’s Laboratories
Bang Overseas
Cranes Software
K Sera Sera Productions
Northgate Technologies
Tata Communications
Orissa Sponge Iron & Steel
Rasoi
Disa India
GSL Nova Petrochemicals
Lotus Eye Care Hospital (virtually unchanged)
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  #22  
Old 30th January 2010, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkr555 View Post
If I am not mistaken, Tata Comm made a new intraday LOW today for this Bear Market (Yes, I still consider this to be a Bear Market Rally)
It looks like a multiyear low for Tata Comm. That's why I'm "looking" at it closely.
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  #23  
Old 5th February 2010, 10:27 AM
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For those who want some positive straws to clutch:

Watch These 3 Stock Market Warning Signs

By Claus Vogt on February 4, 2010

Link

Quote:
Obviously the cracks in the wall of worry are being repaired rapidly. This strongly supports my interpretation that the recent stock market retreat is nothing more than a harmless correction. And I believe that a short-term buying opportunity is taking shape.
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  #24  
Old 1st August 2010, 11:22 PM
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Not a bright view of this results season:

Downgrades to earnings growth in offing.

Quote:
Among the companies covered by Citigroup, around 50 firms have already reported results. Only 14 of these have surprised on the upside, while as many as 24 have disappointed, says the report.
If I got it correct, the last paragraph of the article distinguishes between companies whose margins were squeezed by high commodity prices and those companies that benefited from high commodity prices.
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  #25  
Old 25th September 2010, 08:37 PM
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Thanks Alchemist.

I have registered right now and could not have got a better article than this one.

Cheers.
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